Bas Heijne (publicist) en Hans Goslinga (columnist Trouw)
https://podcast.npo.nl/file/kunststof/132350/bas-heijne-publicist-en-hans-goslinga-columnist-trouw.mp3?awCollectionid=feed-2-kunststof&awEpisodeid=feed-2-kunststof_episode-132350-WO_NTR_20300506
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