S1E5: The Grim Barbarity Of Optics and Design (with Jen Tullock)
https://pdst.fm/e/tracking.swap.fm/track/v9Uiw3bGr54f6BVZKSyc/pscrb.fm/rss/p/traffic.megaphone.fm/CAD8406125828.mp3?updated=1736349573
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