Circle of Empathy, with Jaron Lanier
https://chrt.fm/track/8A2487/audio-delivery.cohostpodcasting.com/audio/e6f8ee87-47be-4a8e-a2cd-6c7f13dff165/episodes/771a21f5-28a4-4038-9091-815c0439e58f/episode.mp3?v=ca921f30b5
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