"Throw Out the Participation Trophy" with Mina Starsiak Hawk
https://dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/chtbl.com/track/9EE2G/pdst.fm/e/rss.art19.com/episodes/8dcbad67-1d31-4390-bf7d-67369da550cd.mp3?rss_browser=BAhJIglpVE1TBjoGRVQ%3D--4577cbcc3cc5282be318e551563630a2c5c2f06f
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