Ashley C. Ford on Design Matters with Debbie Millman
https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/tracking.swap.fm/track/SxlTEPDY7xDg35RXkASs/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/0b032a63-ffbe-42bd-9221-ae3c0021f28c/8bc0ab2b-6675-47ab-ac12-ae82015ef73b/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=de8a2554-4be3-4400-be0f-ae3c0021f29a
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