Bob Illes (author, Funny is Money, Vintage 2020 ep w/ better sound)
https://anchor.fm/s/21d579e4/podcast/play/113297402/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2025-11-30%2F6aa6e244-9832-32c1-b680-a286abd50012.mp3
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