With George Sheppard: On Security, UML and What's More Important than Money
https://anchor.fm/s/11c2aba8/podcast/play/22384326/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2020-10-10%2Fc889c22a-9d7c-fe04-7fc5-e0425052b8b8.mp3
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