Dan on Making Roses out of Ribbons!
https://chtbl.com/track/5899E/podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/pscrb.fm/rss/p/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/291d602d-bc52-483b-9788-b029000cee4b/7f05c200-ac8a-441d-97b2-b1f80060f151/audio.mp3?utm_source=Podcast&in_playlist=a58536d1-0147-41c1-bd06-b029000cee83
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