Nerd Journey: Career Advice for the Technology Professional
John White | Nick Korte
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Document Your Mistakes: Manager Interviews and Community Presence with Kellyn Gorman (2/3)
How do we determine if a manager is the right fit based on our personality, values, and the way our brain works? Kellyn Gorman diligently investigates a potential manager before taking a job. As someone with autism and ADHD, having a supportive boss is critical to her success. This week in episode 321 we’ll explore how Kellyn got into both the Oracle and Microsoft communities and the reasons she is adamant about developing public proof of work (like blogs and public-facing presentations) that showcases mistakes on the path to learning. Listen closely to follow Kellyn’s transition from Oracle community group participant to leader, from public speaking novice to keynote presenter, and the differences she observed when participating in the Microsoft community. Original Recording Date: 02-21-2025 Kellyn Gorman is a database professional who has worked in the technology space for 25 years better known as DBAKevlar. If you missed part 1 of our discussion with Kellyn, check out Episode 320. Topics – Interviewing and Qualifying Managers, The Importance of Proof of Work, A Tale of Two Technical Communities 3:00 – Interviewing and Qualifying Managers Kellyn had mentioned not wanting to spend time on things which are not valuable, but she has developed a way to determine if sources of information are valuable over the course of her experience. In some cases, she is creating valuable resources that do not yet exist for the benefit of others. Kellyn has also learned how to determine if a manager will be valuable to her and fit in with the way she likes to work. How can listeners ask the right questions to determine if a manager is the right fit for the way they like to work? Kellyn says often times when we interview, getting the job is the main focus, which is understandable. If it is not the right job, it can put you in a very bad situation. With Kellyn being AuDHD, having a good boss is essential for her to be successful. Many times, when Kellyn is being interviewed, the people who are interviewing her have read her blogs, the books she has written, or have seen her speak. “They know me. It’s very normal for them to go, ‘I don’t have to give you a technical interview. I already know what you know.’ Ok, well then I get to ask questions.” – Kellyn Gorman In a job interview situation, Kellyn likes to ask questions about how a manager assigns work and the regularity of updates they need (i.e. regular check-ins vs. clear communication of the deadline and nothing more). She does not work well with micromanagers and needs autonomy and trust from her manager. “Go ahead and run the race. I don’t need to know how. That’s important to me. I am a professional. I am going to do the best job and really take care of that company and be extremely loyal. I need them to trust me to do that.” – Kellyn Gorman When Kellyn worked for Microsoft, a mentor encouraged her to take the Clifton Assessment, and it has been extremely valuable. Kellyn says one’s assessment can change over time and will re-take it now and then. The assessment tells someone what you will be like as an employee (skillset, potential, weaknesses). Kellyn likes to give the assessment results to her boss as “an employee manual.” Not all of them, however, take the time to read it. “The ones that read through that…I know I’ve got a good chance of having a good boss. If they just throw it aside…they don’t even take the time to read it…may have problems. They’re not even curious enough about me to read that assessment. And it’s not a long one. The top-level assessment is like 5 pages.” – Kellyn Gorman Kellyn’s Clifton Assessment says she is a strategic thinker, a go getter, and that she does not need a lot of management. People can tell her what they need, and she can figure it out from there. Kellyn is looking for a manager who is flexible and trusts her to go and do her job. They need to understand the deep expertise she brings to the table (Oracle expertise, for example). Kellyn wants to make sure a manager understands the challenges of being in an older technology space but operating across a broad set of communities. “I have what’s called…a Lego brain. If you want to know how your technology fits into every other technology, I can tell you. You want to build out a solution and market it to any different provider no matter if it’s Google or Microsoft? I can architect it for you…. That’s all I do for one company right now. I build them solutions. I architect them, and they take them and market them. And it’s awesome, but I needed a boss that understood that…. I need Kellyn’s Lego brain for this.” – Kellyn Gorman A good manager for Kellyn won’t try to control or stifle her talents but will enable her to leverage them to build the solutions she delivers to the company. How does Kellyn prioritize what to address about the way she likes to work during the interview process and what is ok to save for after she gets hired? Kellyn addresses a lot during the interview process, and she interviews for long periods of time. Kellyn spoke to her current manager for a period of 4 months before she was hired. It was a similar time period when she went to work for both Microsoft and Silk. Speaking with other individuals inside a company who can answer specific questions is very important to Kellyn as part of the overall process of seeking a new job. Our contacts are extremely important. Kellyn tells the story of taking a role at Oracle and making good decisions with the help received from Mary Melgaard in navigating the job offer process. When Kellyn went to Microsoft, she contacted Bruno Borges for help. When seeking a job with Silk, it was Tom O’Neal and Chris Buckle who helped Kellyn navigate the process. Upon coming to Redgate, Kellyn had help from Louise Domeisen. “I want to feel secure. I need that secure feeling that I’m making strong choices and understanding.” – Kellyn Gorman Kellyn has also negotiated other opportunities outside her job responsibilities with potential managers. That negotiation process / those types of conversations can give you insight into what someone will be like as a manager. 11:18 – The Importance of Proof of Work John highlights Kellyn’s emphasis on having proof of work that people can learn from and even discover her by as well as a strong professional network. Kellyn advises every mentee she has to blog and do public speaking. “I am out there. People already know what I know, and it’s a way for people to comprehend and to get a jump in. I have not had to go look for a job in over a decade. We’re talking a good 15 years. People have come to find me and said, ‘we want you….’ It’s really important to be out there. Be present. Just be the best that you can be and show what you can do…. People will come find you, and they will offer you jobs.” – Kellyn Gorman Kellyn’s job at Redgate as an Oracle Advocate began with an ask that she work for them as an engineer 10 hours per week. The Redgate advocacy team would later decide they wanted Kellyn to join them but initially did not realize she was already working for Redgate part time. They offered her the Oracle Advocate role without needing to interview for it. When Kellyn went to join Silk, she had reached out to Silk and 2 other companies stating her readiness to leave Microsoft and requested they create a role for her. Silk provided exactly what she asked for (a role that would put her skills to work). Kellyn also tells the story of someone asking her to take their role at Delphix. John references themes of learning in public and documenting your thought process (as a beginner or otherwise). We have discussed these with previous guests, aligning with advice from the book Show Your Work by Austin Kleon. Documenting our successes and failures makes our writing more approachable to those who are beginners or less knowledgeable in an area. John asks Kellyn to contrast how this strategy can help those who are entry level or early career in a specific area compared to those who may be more experienced or subject matter experts. Kellyn has been blogging on DBAKevlar since 2008 and regularly models documenting her mistakes for people to see. Kellyn calls out one mistake she documented related to an Oracle upgrade. Publishing our mistakes showcases our humanity to others. We make mistakes just like everyone one else. Kellyn uses the example of her son thinking she was perfect and helping him understand she makes plenty of mistakes. Kellyn used to see posts from people in the industry detailing the incredible things they were doing. As a result, she thought those people never made mistakes. Kellyn stresses the importance of showing when we mess up and how we cover from it. Kellyn’s husband was her first mentor and worked with her when she was a junior DBA (database administrator). Kellyn’s husband shared a story with her about a mistake he made related to removing a large database index. Her husband’s boss didn’t get upset but rather was focused on moving forward after the mistake. “And that was it…. It happened. Let’s take care of it. And when you hear that from somebody as prolific as my husband was in my view at that time, you start to understand it’s important to share those mistakes. It’s important to talk about your journey.” – Kellyn Gorman If you read Kellyn’s blog, she started off as a DBA learning things the hard way. While Kellyn was documenting things for herself, she also thought others might find her writings interesting if they were published in a blog. From there, Kellyn continued to grow and do more. “This is my path in tech. This is what I’m doing. If you find it interesting, go ahead and read it. If you don’t, I’m alright with that too. It’s alright. I may need this next week when I forget what I did in 10g, so we
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