Nerd Journey: Career Advice for the Technology Professional
John White | Nick Korte
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Sales Skills: Professional Networking and Continued Practice with Ramzi Marjaba (1/2)
Is professional networking the same thing as sales? Does the thought of that make you cringe a little? Ramzi Marjaba, our guest in episode 307, says sales skills are some of the most important skills we as technology professions need that no one talks about. Whether you are building professional connections or searching for a job, you are running a sales cycle. Ramzi helps us understand the role of the sales engineer and the trend in job openings over the last several years. We’ll hear about the genesis of We the Sales Engineers, how it has changed over time, and what Ramzi has learned from hosting a podcast after 300+ episodes. Original Recording Date: 12-07-2024 Topics – Genesis of We the Sales Engineers, The Sales Engineer Role and Job Market Trends, Sales Skills and Professional Networking, Transformation of We the Sales Engineers, An Emphasis on Practice 2:21 – Genesis of We the Sales Engineers Ramzi Marjaba is a returning guest and currently works as a solution specialist for a technology company. In addition to this, Ramzi runs We the Sales Engineers, which began as a podcast. Over time Ramzi started creating blogs and YouTube videos – @WeTheSalesEngineers related to sales engineering. He has been coaching others who work as SEs / want to become SEs for a few years now. Ramzi tells us that coaching is one of his favorite things to do, more so than being a salesperson or a sales engineer at a company. An SE is a sales engineer, which may also be known as a systems engineer, solution engineer, solution consultant, etc. at other companies. There are many different names for this role in our industry, but it’s a technical pre-sales role. We last spoke to Ramzi way back in Episode 27, which Nick missed due to sickness. In that discussion Ramzi mentioned starting the We the Sales Engineers podcast because he didn’t really have a place to go to get educated on what it was like to be a sales engineer. Ramzi wanted to create resources for people getting into sales engineering profession and to build a community. Ramzi tells the story of a specific customer meeting 2 years into his career as a sales engineer. “Halfway through the meeting, my customer…he basically stopped me and said, ‘Ramzi, I don’t care about anything you’re showing me right now.’ And my VP was sitting there…. That was the best thing that ever happened to me because he took me aside after the call… He said, ‘Ramzi, you didn’t do any discovery.’ My immediate response to that was ‘what is discovery?’ Two years into the job and no one has ever explained to me what a discovery was. So, I went down a rabbit hole….” – Ramzi Marjaba Ramzi ended up reading a number of sales books, but he wasn’t able to find many SE focused books. Demonstrating to Win had some helpful tips on discovery. When speaking with other SEs inside his company, Ramzi found they were making the same mistakes. Ramzi wanted to talk with SEs outside his company and learn from them, and he thought (at the time) that the one way to get them to talk to him was to say he had a podcast. So, he started a podcast. “Knowing now what I didn’t know back then, I would have been able to talk to anybody without a podcast. SEs is the best community in the world from what I’ve seen. They are willing to talk to anybody to help.” – Ramzi Marjaba, on the SE community Ramzi contrasts the SE (who talks to others because they want to help) and the salesperson (who may expect something in return). 6:42 – The Sales Engineer Role and Job Market Trends How would Ramzi define what a sales engineer is and is not? Sales engineering is the process of solving a business problem with technology. Sales engineers are not sales support or customer support. They are partners to salespeople and to customers to understand a business problem, come up with a solution, and help the salesperson provide the best proposal for that customer. Sales engineers come up with a solution and then try to show the customer why they have the best solution. Ramzi says many sales engineers don’t understand that their comments through continued interactions with a customer during the sales process can add value to or take value from a deal. Do sales engineers have a role in the price negotiation process? Ramzi says yet, but it is more indirect. Sales engineers help justify the specific bill of materials as the solution and why it is uniquely differentiated from competitor or commodity solutions. They also help account managers handle objections from customers. Though we might have dedicated teams for value engineering at a company, Ramzi believes part of an SE’s role is to highlight the value of a solution to a customer. What does Ramzi see as common entry points to sales engineering or the roles people often have before they become SEs? Ramzi has seen people from post-sales support or professional services become SEs. Many come from post-sales. Some people move into an SE role from the customer side and have hands on experience in specific vendor technologies. Nick and John both followed this path (IT Operations). Coming from the customer side allows you to understand what customers need and want and may be an easier transition. Software developers might also transition into an SE role, but it might depend on the target market / target industry for a product. “Generally speaking, if you’re a customer for an industry, you can become a vendor of that industry.” – Ramzi Marjaba In 2021 / 2022, Ramzi tells us people with seemingly unrelated jobs were becoming SEs. At the time of this recording (late 2024), hiring managers are being more selective when it comes to job candidates and their experience coming into an SE role. John wants to dig deeper into Ramzi’s comment about the 2021 / 2022 time frame. In the 2021 / 2022 time frame money was cheap, and interest rates were very low. Many companies wanted to scale during this period, and there was a shortage of SEs. Ramzi feels like the range of people considered for sales engineering roles widened considerably. Companies were more willing to take chances to hire people as sales engineers. Some of these choices paid off, while others did not. If we fast forward to the more recent pass, money is more expensive, and many experienced SEs have been laid off over time. Ramzi feels like companies are being more selective about the level of experience they want, and it’s an employer market rather than an employee market. Is Ramzi seeing an overall increase, decrease, or steadiness in terms of the number of sales engineering jobs open taking into context all the layoff events we’ve seen? Ramzi says right now he sees a steady, slow increase in the number of openings for sales engineering roles. That is improved since last year at this time (almost no openings). While the number of openings may be increasing, Ramzi says it is still very tough and competitive in the job market. Ramzi says a couple of years ago recruiters were not able to get all the required elements in a job description and had to settle in certain areas. Now, there isn’t a need to settle for less than what a company wants / requires from a role. Ramzi gives the example of being an SE focused on networking. Applying for a role focused on network security would be an easy transition, but you might not have the security experience. Someone with the same soft skills and security experience might be looked at as a stronger candidate. “It’s just harder to move jobs right now. If you’re in a job and you’re secure, be thankful.” – Ramzi Marjaba Jon emphasizes the number of people out of work in specific areas due to layoffs making the job market more competitive right now. “It’s not just the people who are out of a job who are looking for a job. If someone’s at Palo Alto, and Fortinet really wants them, they will go after them. So, you’re not just competing against…other people who were laid off. You’re competing against people with a job. And it’s always easier to get a job when you already have one…. Just because it’s not a good time doesn’t mean you don’t apply or you don’t try.” – Ramzi Marjaba Is the current job market not a good environment for those adjacent to the SE role to try and move to it? Ramzi says there’s not a specific good time to make a move into an SE role. If it is what you want, you still try it. Ramzi landed his role as an SE in a not-so-great market because a vendor wanted to gain a relationship with a specific company. Ramzi had the network of professional connections this vendor wanted at the time and got the job. 14:49 – Sales Skills and Professional Networking “Resumes don’t get you jobs. People do. So, if you’re interested in becoming an SE or interested in changing jobs, whatever job it is, start networking. Dig your well now before you need it. Reach out to your network, other people who are in the same industry.” – Ramzi Marjaba If you want to break into sales engineering, reach out to sales engineers, salespeople, or people who work in customer success to have conversations. “I really hate to admit this from the bottom of my heart. Sales is one of the most important skills that people need and no one ever talks about…. The sales skill is something you use in every day of your life, and the process of getting a job is a sales cycle. It’s a sales job. You’re the product. You’re the salesperson. You’re trying to sell yourself to the customers. How do you sell yourself to the customers? Well, the first thing you need to do is find the lead.” – Ramzi Marjaba, on job search as a sales cycle Leads are other people who can refer you for a job. Throughout the interview process you need to showcase your value (i.e. the value of the product – you) and not just restate your job description. For example, what was the impact
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