Nerd Journey: Career Advice for the Technology Professional
John White | Nick Korte
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People Impact: Layoffs and Survivor’s Guilt with Brad Pinkston (2/2)
Are layoffs top of mind for you right now? Brad Pinkston is a returning guest and someone who has experienced multiple layoff events in the tech industry from different seats. In episode 306, Brad shares the story of getting laid off from a small startup. We’ll dissect how he processed that news and eventually returned to big company life. Then, looking at layoffs from a different lens, we talk about feeling survivor’s guilt. Have you ever felt it? Is it wrong to feel it when you didn’t lose your job? After deciding to continue as an individual contributor, Brad would later become a member of the team he had once managed. Listen closely to hear about the hardest part of that transition and whether Brad sees himself returning to people management someday. Original Recording Date: 11-21-2024 Brad Pinkston works in technical pre-sales and is a returning guest. If you missed part 1 of this discussion with Brad, check out Episode 305. Topics – Once Impacted by a Layoff, Examining Survivor’s Guilt, Staying Individual Contributor, Parting Thoughts 2:29 – Once Impacted by a Layoff How did Brad process being laid off from the 2nd startup he joined? Looking back, Brad can logically see that his position really did need to be eliminated. Brad likes to stay on the analytical side of his mind because emotions can easily snowball in situations like these. “The startup was taking a chance on trying to create something. After months of trying to create it, it didn’t work. Maybe a bigger company could have taken me and put me in a different place, but this is startup world…. If we’re abandoning the strategy, we’re abandoning people who were hired to execute the strategy, so that’s the way that I analyzed it mentally.” – Brad Pinkston The emotional processing of this event was not easy. Brad says he was worried about finances and taking care of his family among other things. Brad mentions one of the worst things a manager or leader can say in a layoff situation such as this is how great someone is and that they won’t have any trouble finding a job. “If I’m so great, why did you need to eliminate me as opposed to repurposing me or something like that? …That was the biggest emotional reaction I had to the entire thing…. I think that managers or people that have to deliver that news…they say that thinking that it’s going to help you be more confident, but it is not helpful at all. It is a shot to the gut emotionally, so if you’re ever in a place where you have to deliver that news, don’t say that.” – Brad Pinkston, on telling someone being laid off they won’t have trouble finding a job John highlights the fact that we as humans don’t react emotionally the same way we intellectually think we should. “Our emotional reactions…they just are. Whether or not it makes sense intellectually, it is what happens…. You can do all of the intellectualization that you want. That doesn’t change what the emotional reaction was.” – John White, on how reactions to situations might not make sense We might feel that we have failed again or feel worse by having an emotional reaction that intellectually doesn’t make sense. A person can spiral downward quickly this way. John has learned to try and give himself grace in these situations (when the emotional reaction does not make logical sense). This is the only time Brad has been laid off, and he feels lucky that it’s only happened once. Telling people they are going to be fine might cause an emotional reaction. Looking at this differently, Brad thinks he would have been upset if the layoff had been completely impersonal and fact based. He would have been upset that they didn’t care. “There’s no way to receive or deliver that news in a way that’s going to be positive. You can only control levels of bad in that scenario in my opinion.” – Brad Pinkston John references the movie Up in the Air and George Clooney’s character flying around the county to fire people. The way in which Clooney’s character conducted the firing seemed a little bit like emotional manipulation. Brad says there is an emotional reaction to being laid off that you’re “not good enough.” If you have been laid off, let your professional network know what happened. Cast a wide net, and don’t be afraid of telling people. If you haven’t built a strong set of professional connections, start doing it right now. Your network is there to help if they can in times of need. Hopefully you are also giving to your network consistently. “Don’t be ashamed of being laid off. It is what it is. If you haven’t been laid off or fired, just wait a few years.” – Brad Pinkston John was laid off from Google as part of a reduction in force of over 11,000 people. It was a very humbling situation. John tried to cope with the situation intellectually by telling himself it wasn’t personal and that it didn’t mean John was bad. But it still does not feel good to lose your job. You can hear more details of what happened and how John reacted in Episode 220 – John Got Fired. 10:12 – Examining Survivor’s Guilt Sometimes the organization you work for has a round of layoffs, and you are not impacted. From where John is sitting, he sees friends working at other organizations getting laid off and feels some survivor’s guilt. “I’m sitting where I’m sitting not because of how amazing I am but because of a roll of the dice, literally a roll of the dice. And that’s a difficult thing to deal with.” – John White Brad is very analytical and an engineer at heart. He shares the story of being someone who survived a layoff event. It’s helpful if those who remain at a company after a layoff can understand the reasoning behind an organization’s decision to reduce the workforce (i.e. where the organization was going and why). John is seeing really good people being let go in these layoffs we’re seeing in the industry. “We’re all going through seeing good friends who are really good at their jobs that are really valuable being let go from organizations…into a job market where other companies are doing the same thing….” – John White Brad tells us the team he was on before a restructuring event was an amazing group of engineers. It’s difficult to figure out why you remain but other talented people were laid off. There’s a lot of survivor’s guilt (the only term we have for it) associated with still being at a company after one of these events. We can be thankful for still having a job but still feel a sense of guilt. Nick highlights how this can create an awkward feeling. What business would someone still employed have to feel bad? We want to maintain relationships with people who have been impacted but might not know what to say to encourage. Executives have to make hard decisions for the good of the company. We’re also not saying every one of these deicisions by executives are made in the right way either. Brad knows it isn’t easy for the managers and leaders who have to deliver tough news to people about being laid off. When layoff events start to happen, Brad says people are in limbo, uncertain if they are getting a good call or a bad call. There is a lot of uncertainty. “Even the good call…good for me…that’s not a good or a bad call for the manager calling to deliver that. It’s just another call that they’ve got to deliver, and I feel for the folks that have to deliver that message because a lot of times they’re not even part of the decision on who is going to get a good call or a bad call…. That is in a nutshell more of middle management than people realize. Even at good companies you gotta deliver bad news.” – Brad Pinkston, on not always being able to set the strategy as a middle manager but having to execute it John shares the story of a manager he saw deliver tough news to an employee. In this case it was not in the middle of a layoff. The manager realized the person did not fit within what the team needed but still saw value in the person and reached out to contacts who were willing to give them a serious interview for a job better suited for the person. John mentions the issue with layoffs is not enough slack in people’s networks to account for 1000 people hitting the job market in a specific geography on the same day, for example. There may not 1000 job openings right then. John has tried to give to his network to the degree that he can, being open to talking with people if they need a listening ear. “The is not the end of your career. This is a comma in your career. Your career is a long book, and this is…maybe not even the end of a chapter. It might be in the middle.” – John White, on guidance he would give to others right now The job market is tough right now with so many tech layoffs. John heard someone make an off-handed comment about there being a lot of startups 5 years from now founded by people who were laid off. That doesn’t help anyone looking for a job right now and is yet another thing not to say to someone who has been impacted. Do the managers or leaders who have to execute mass layoffs also feel survivor’s guilt? Brad has been lucky in that he’s never had to deliver the layoff news to someone. He’s managed people out of the business and managed people into better roles. Brad thinks the front and second-line managers he’s worked with have definitely felt the survivor’s guilt. If Brad were in the position of needing to deliver the bad news, he feels he would be more heartbroken over having to execute something he doesn’t really want to do. This would be more painful than the eventual survivor’s guilt. An individual contributor on a team that was reduced may be feeling survivor’s guilt, but they didn’t get cussed out like a manager might have after delivering bad news to someone, for example. Likely managers
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