Interview: NANO's pain that fed into gain
https://anchor.fm/s/4b35c28/podcast/play/103843978/https%3A%2F%2Fd3ctxlq1ktw2nl.cloudfront.net%2Fstaging%2F2025-5-8%2F6a32140f-367f-fa82-40e0-1ac7b09ccb07.mp3
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